ImageImage

Official Bucks Player Workout Thread

Moderators: paulpressey25, MickeyDavis

User avatar
Wise1
RealGM
Posts: 18,261
And1: 256
Joined: Jun 27, 2005
Location: Devouring worlds.
     

 

Post#141 » by Wise1 » Sun Jun 8, 2008 4:52 pm

Bernman wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Brandan Wright has great touch in the post, that's not really debatable, Kirby. And to say he has no jumper is deceiving. Unlike your favorite player, he can shoot from mid-range, it's just not a weapon by any means. But he keeps you honest. Your boy Gadzuric on the other hand, no sense in guarding him beyond 3 feet. And he has absolutely no touch on hooks. And he doesn't know his limitations. He bricks ill-fated long hook attempts and airballs jumpers quite frequently. Defensively, he recklessly goes for every block and is a fouling machine. Wright tries to stay on the floor long enough. Gadzuric plays out of control. He didn't pick up the game at an early age unlike Wright.


I think Wright will be a fine NBA player, but are you trying to tell me that Gadzuric has no jumper.....???? I've seen him wet spot up jumpers on many occasions. :P
User avatar
Bernman
RealGM
Posts: 24,742
And1: 5,651
Joined: Aug 05, 2004
Location: Into the Great White Nothing
     

 

Post#142 » by Bernman » Sun Jun 8, 2008 5:12 pm

Wise1 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



1. The comparison to Odom was only to show that 6-10 guys with handle and athleticism CAN play the 3. The playmaking ability was not the point of emphasis, it was the ability to handle the ball. With that being said, Randolph did average less turnovers a game than Odom as a freshman. No one claims that he'll be a better playmaker. I suspect he'll be a better defender...just what we need. Again, I liken him more to Tayshaun Prince.

2. To your point about Randolph's ball handling compared to Wright and Yi's, I think you did a fine job making the distinction yourself. The separation is what makes executives think that Randolph can play the 3 in the NBA. Wright and Yi, not a chance. The Bucks can potentially go 6-11/7-1/7-0 defensively up front. That's exciting and something that Hammond and Skiles are wisely pursuing.

3. Leverage and determination are indeed more important than lifting a bar off of your chest. But Bern, how much leverage and determination would it take for a 197lb 6-11 freshman to average 8.5 rebounds per game in the SEC? The proof is in the pudding. On top of that, Randolph STILL bench pressed more than Wright and some of the other similarly built players he's been compared to here. Leverage....check. Determination....check. Wiry strength and agility....check.

4. If execs believe that Randolph will be a man without a position, then we certainly have nothing to worry about as Hammond would certainly pass on him. I happen to think that the kid can play a defensive small forward for us. I hope Hammond and Skiles came away impressed.


They can play the 3, in part, because they have some semblance of range. Handle and athleticism can't be utilized unless you're keeping the defense honest. Otherwise they don't have to pick you up until 10-15 feet. Then good luck penetrating around your defender in compressed space and immediately have to deal with shot blockers. Not having respectable range on his jumper makes Prince another fallacious comparison.

You suspect he'll be better than Odom on defense, but DX lists all around defense as a negative. Only says he has the potential to play defense, probably because of length and quickness. But they're ultimately saying quickness is an asset as a power forward, does it become a liability as a small forward? And then how do the lack of awareness, motor, as DX notes, project for him to realize his potential?

The proof is not in the 8.5 rebound per game pudding. As I've noted, LSU had a horrible rebounding margin. Randolph didn't have to fight teammates for rebounds. And LSU missed a lot of shots. If he was such a force on the boards, why was his team getting dominated in that area, with him in the frontcourt? And DX listed all these as negatives: strength, cannot hold spot on the block, pushed around in the post, can he guard NBA PF's, and once again the motor issue.
"TRADE GIANNIS" - Magic Giannison
Debit One
Starter
Posts: 2,363
And1: 87
Joined: Apr 21, 2005
Location: YOU WANNA KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS TEAM?

 

Post#143 » by Debit One » Sun Jun 8, 2008 5:44 pm

L&H_05 wrote:Uh oh...

If Wise is promoting/hyping/endorsing a certain player in the draft, do yourself a favor and ---> DO THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE...

:lol:


It's all that I can do to refrain from invoking the name of a certain player on the Bucks roster, who like Randolph can block shots and grab a few rebounds.

:D
User avatar
SupremeHustle
RealGM
Posts: 27,314
And1: 28,725
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Cloud 9
 

 

Post#144 » by SupremeHustle » Sun Jun 8, 2008 5:56 pm

Debit One wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



It's all that I can do to refrain from invoking the name of a certain player on the Bucks roster, who like Randolph can block shots and grab a few rebounds.

:D


Yeah, I'm not a big Yi fan, either.
jschligs wrote:Am I the only one who doesn't know who the **** SupremeHustle is?
User avatar
Wise1
RealGM
Posts: 18,261
And1: 256
Joined: Jun 27, 2005
Location: Devouring worlds.
     

 

Post#145 » by Wise1 » Sun Jun 8, 2008 6:06 pm

Bern, you continue to look at Randolph's offensive impact first and foremost. While I think his handle and offensive ability will be more than servicable at the 3 for the Bucks, it is his potential on defense that has me, and probably the Bucks, high on him.

Height, length and athleticism serve to compensate for lack of quickness in many scenarios...especially when overall team defense is factored in.

Let's not forget that when we are comparing a college players to NBA players (skill set / production) is gives added perspective when you look at the NBA player at the same stage of development as the college player.

Here are Tayshaun's freshman and sophomore stats at Kentucky:

MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
98-99 Kentucky 20.2 41.4 28.7 65.6 3.8 1.2 1.0 0.6 0.7 5.8
99-00 Kentucky 34.0 42.3 30.7 70.5 6.0 1.8 2.0 1.3 0.8 13.3

At a similar stage in their development, Randolph holds a decided edge over Prince in shooting, rebounding, scoring, steals and blocks.

As a small forward prospect, Randolph is as good as it gets in this draft. He would certainly struggle against large power forwards, but again, I think the Bucks fondest wish would be to play him as a 3. If they think he can be effective there and or switch between the 3-4, he's a no brainer as a defensive role player as far as I'm concerned. He has his flaws right now, but like most talented 18 year olds he'll get better.
User avatar
carmelbrownqueen
RealGM
Posts: 14,578
And1: 42
Joined: Jun 08, 2004
Location: Somewhere thinking independently

 

Post#146 » by carmelbrownqueen » Sun Jun 8, 2008 6:15 pm

Bernman wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Better late than never, Queen.
I suppose. Not much new in the video from the workout but at least we got to see them do a few drills.
"Too many people ask for help, and sometimes you have to help yourself." - Jerry Sloan

"We don't accept anything but winning. We don't accept anything but playing hard." - John Hammond
User avatar
Bernman
RealGM
Posts: 24,742
And1: 5,651
Joined: Aug 05, 2004
Location: Into the Great White Nothing
     

 

Post#147 » by Bernman » Sun Jun 8, 2008 6:24 pm

carmelbrownqueen wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

I suppose. Not much new in the video from the workout but at least we got to see them do a few drills.


Yeah, it wasn't incredibly informative. But then again, these workout videos never are. They don't want to publicize how player's actually performed in person, or their genuine reactions to their performance, lest tip-off any draft intentions.
"TRADE GIANNIS" - Magic Giannison
User avatar
paulpressey25
Senior Mod - Bucks
Senior Mod - Bucks
Posts: 61,119
And1: 26,419
Joined: Oct 27, 2002
     

 

Post#148 » by paulpressey25 » Sun Jun 8, 2008 7:33 pm

I couldn't make an informed post on Prince v. Randolph unless I could spend an hour with each guy. Prince strikes me as one of those very smart but quiet late bloomers.

Everyone drafted has physical talent. It is what is upstairs that makes the difference between Haislip and Prince who went a few spots later in the same draft.

Hammond has to judge which one Randolph is mentally and maturity wise---Haislip or Prince.
User avatar
emunney
RealGM
Posts: 60,431
And1: 37,060
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Location: where takes go to be pampered

 

Post#149 » by emunney » Sun Jun 8, 2008 11:04 pm

Wise1 wrote:At a similar stage in their development, Randolph holds a decided edge over Prince in shooting, rebounding, scoring, steals and blocks.


Whoa there, big fella. Prince was a perimeter player in college. As you can see by those stats you posted, he could actually shoot from the outside... he wasn't very good at it -- he was downright bad, in fact -- but he was still far better than Randolph, who is outright incompetent apart from 15 foot pull-ups.

You also left out that, as a freshman, more than half of Prince's FGAs were from 3. That ratio came down a little as the years went by, but Prince was almost not even a forward at Kentucky, and he was definitely a wing player. Randolph does all his damage at the rim, and hurts his team when he's away from it.
Here are more legal notices regarding the Posts
User avatar
Wise1
RealGM
Posts: 18,261
And1: 256
Joined: Jun 27, 2005
Location: Devouring worlds.
     

 

Post#150 » by Wise1 » Sun Jun 8, 2008 11:26 pm

emunney wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Whoa there, big fella. Prince was a perimeter player in college. As you can see by those stats you posted, he could actually shoot from the outside... he wasn't very good at it -- he was downright bad, in fact -- but he was still far better than Randolph, who is outright incompetent apart from 15 foot pull-ups.

You also left out that, as a freshman, more than half of Prince's FGAs were from 3. That ratio came down a little as the years went by, but Prince was almost not even a forward at Kentucky, and he was definitely a wing player. Randolph does all his damage at the rim, and hurts his team when he's away from it.


Hey E, it's all about putting the ball in the hole right? It doesn't matter where the points come from unless it's your specific role to spread the defense. As a soph, Prince shot low 40's where Randolph shot mid 40's. Apparently, Randolph's team lacked overall offensive discipline but I'm betting that Skiles would be able to get Randolph to play within his strengths. Afterall, he wouldn't be the best player on "this" team. The Bucks probably will feature Bogut underneath and Redd on the perimeter. Ideally, we'd like to see Sessions penetrating and creating easy dunk and 15 foot pull up opportunities for both Randolph and Yi. In any event, I don't see the Bucks featuring Randolph's mid-range game.

But again, I see the offensive contributions as secondary. It's his potential defensive contributions that I lust.

Looking at the workout video between 1:22 - 1:36 you see Alexandar and Randolph in a ballhandling/shooting drill. Just a snapshot, but you tell me who looks like the more fluid ball handler with the better shot. I don't think there's any question who has the better upside defensively. If Randolph is there at 8, I'm betting the Bucks take Randolph. I mean as a 3, he just fits everything that Hammond and Skiles have represented.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 99,263
And1: 35,380
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

 

Post#151 » by ReasonablySober » Sun Jun 8, 2008 11:54 pm

With regards to Green, I watched him a few times earlier in the year and liked what I saw.

But jesus...you look at the box scores and you can tell he [i]really/i] likes that three pointer. Now, he's got a good looking shot. But it doesn't exactly go down as much as you'd like if he's putting up that many. Half of his attempts were threes. That's over 7.5 per game!

Just an odd player. He's athletic and big. Why he'd hang on the perimeter so much is confusing.

Now, all that being the case, he's as close to a true SF as there is, the possible exception being Gallinari (though I haven't seen him play as much). I know Skiles teams have been those that emphasized the jumper; Green could be a fit.
User avatar
LUKE23
RealGM
Posts: 72,328
And1: 6,282
Joined: May 26, 2005
Location: Stunville
       

 

Post#152 » by LUKE23 » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:00 am

With the small forwards, I'm basically at the point where I can see the argument for both Randolph and Alexander. Alexander has an NBA-ready body and athletic ability, but does need to work on ball-control and being able to create his own shot. Randolph has NBA-ready athletic ability and ball-handling for his position, but has body frame issues and also needs to work on his jumpshot range. If they do go Randolph it's pretty obvious they are going by "best chance to be the best player in three years" route.

I still like Westbrook or Gordon over any of the SF's, but wouldn't be upset with Randolph or Alexander. Greene is way too 3 happy for my liking.

I'm at the point where I have been, outside of Alexander growing on me more and more with the more I read regarding work ethic and athleticism. If we come out with one of Westbrook/Gordon/Love/Randolph/Alexander I'll be a pretty happy fan.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 99,263
And1: 35,380
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

 

Post#153 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:06 am

I'm gonna trust Hammond, Skiles and (gulp) Babcock more than my own eyes with regards to Alexander. I didn't see an NBA SF when I watched West Virginia and Joe Alexander. I saw a rich man's Mike Wilkinson.

In the NBA, I don't see how he's going to be able to get his shot off against guys like Butler, James, Pierce, Howard or Iguodala.

But if they think he's on his way to developing an offensive game outside of the dunk, and that his defense is good enough to compensate for a while, then I'll trust their judgment.
User avatar
emunney
RealGM
Posts: 60,431
And1: 37,060
Joined: Feb 22, 2005
Location: where takes go to be pampered

 

Post#154 » by emunney » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:06 am

I'm not even sure that Randolph is the best shot to be the best player in 3 years. Alexander has that insane work ethic going for him in that respect, and now that he's officially a full time basketball player I think you can make an equal if not greater case for his ceiling. I wouldn't be surprised if he's hitting the corner 3 with regularity by this fall. I'd really like the guy we draft to be hyper-self-motivated and mentally tough, and Alexander is those things. And it's not like Randolph is more physically gifted than Alexander.

If that's the choice, I'm taking Alexander every time.
Here are more legal notices regarding the Posts
User avatar
Rockmaninoff
General Manager
Posts: 7,656
And1: 1,671
Joined: Jan 11, 2008
   

 

Post#155 » by Rockmaninoff » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:07 am

Anthony Randolph = Stromile Swift

Donte Greene = Donyell Marshell

Joe Alexander = Desmond Mason?

Thanks for the heads up on the video, CBQ. I found the players in that little Pick 8 widget at the bottom of the draft section, interesting. Donte Greene and Joe Alexander aren't in that Top 14, but Marresse Speights is.

Kevin Love is the 8th profile, but I just don't think he will fall to us.
MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:The fight for civil rights just like for liberty and justice and peace won't be won by man. It will take a god...so lets move on to sports.

Magic Giannison wrote:Giannis is god but even god's cannot save our **** team.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

 

Post#156 » by europa » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:09 am

DrugBust wrote:I didn't see an NBA SF when I watched West Virginia and Joe Alexander. I saw a rich man's Mike Wilkinson.



That's kind of how I saw Brook Lopez whenever I watched him - a rich man's Brian Butch.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 99,263
And1: 35,380
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

 

Post#157 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:11 am

Remember, apparently in their workout Speights shut Alexander down.

Of all the high ceiling, risk/reward prospects in this draft, it's Speights that intrigues me the most, not Randolph.
User avatar
europa
RealGM
Posts: 44,919
And1: 471
Joined: Jun 25, 2005
Location: Right Behind You

 

Post#158 » by europa » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:14 am

I'm not sure there's a bigger high risk/high reward player in this draft than Jordan. If there's any way someone can light a permanent fire under that kid's ass and make him play to his full potential he could end up being the best player in this draft or the second-best behind Rose. But that's a pretty huge question and a pretty huge gamble for any team to take with a lottery pick.
Nothing will not break me.
User avatar
Rockmaninoff
General Manager
Posts: 7,656
And1: 1,671
Joined: Jan 11, 2008
   

 

Post#159 » by Rockmaninoff » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:16 am

DrugBust wrote:Remember, apparently in their workout Speights shut Alexander down.

Of all the high ceiling, risk/reward prospects in this draft, it's Speights that intrigues me the most, not Randolph.


:nod:
MilBucksBackOnTop06 wrote:The fight for civil rights just like for liberty and justice and peace won't be won by man. It will take a god...so lets move on to sports.

Magic Giannison wrote:Giannis is god but even god's cannot save our **** team.
User avatar
ReasonablySober
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 99,263
And1: 35,380
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
Location: Cheap dinner. Watch basketball. Bone down.
Contact:

 

Post#160 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Jun 9, 2008 12:30 am

europa wrote:I'm not sure there's a bigger high risk/high reward player in this draft than Jordan. If there's any way someone can light a permanent fire under that kid's ass and make him play to his full potential he could end up being the best player in this draft or the second-best behind Rose. But that's a pretty huge question and a pretty huge gamble for any team to take with a lottery pick.


That's true. I forgot about Jordan. I've yet to see any discernible basketball ability in him.

Return to Milwaukee Bucks